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Happy to Help | A Customer Support Podcast
If you work in customer support, if you lead a support team, or if you are looking to better the customer experience for your company, then this podcast is for you!
Happy to Help is a podcast about all things customer support brought to you by the people at Buzzsprout. Join us, on the second Tuesday of every month as Buzzsprout's Head of Podcaster Success, Priscilla Brooke dives into the world of customer support to make remarkable support the standard, not the exception!
Happy to Help | A Customer Support Podcast
Strategies for Understanding and Implementing Customer Feedback with Chase Clemons
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
We are diving deep into the tricky topic of customer feedback with special guest, Chase Clemons! Chase is the Head of Customer Support at 37signals and has over 15 years of experience in customer support!
In this episode, Chase shares tips on effectively understanding and translating customer feedback and feature requests. You'll discover how 37signals approaches customer-driven product development, the best ways to identify the real needs behind feature requests, and the importance of open, honest communication with customers—even when the answer is “no.”
Chase also offers insights into the importance of balancing customer desires with company vision, and the role of support teams in relaying valuable feedback to product teams.
Whether you’re leading a small support team or working at the front lines, this episode is packed with actionable advice on improving customer interactions, turning feedback into actionable insights, and building a stronger relationship with your customers!
Check out 37signals' products: Basecamp, HEY, and ONCE!
Links mentioned in this episode:
- Rework by Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson
- Jobs To Be Done with Bob Moesta
- Shape Up: Stop Running in Circles and Ship Work that Matters
We want to hear from you! Share your support stories and questions with us at happytohelp@buzzsprout.com!
To learn more about Buzzsprout visit Buzzsprout.com.
Thanks for listening!
Customer Feedback Strategies and Insights
PriscillaWelcome to Happy to Help . A podcast about customer support from the people of Buzzsprout . I'm your host , Priscilla Brooke . Today we're diving into customer feedback . We'll talk about accepting feedback and feature requests from customers , how to identify the need beneath the feedback and some strategies for communicating customer needs outside of support . Thanks for joining us . Let's get into it .
Guest Introduction: Chase Clemons
PriscillaI am so excited today for a couple reasons . One , we're going to talk about customer feedback , which is really exciting for me because for the past I don't know six to eight weeks I've really been thinking a lot about customer feedback and how we handle feature requests and feedback from customers in the Buzzsprout support world . So that's been something that's on my mind a lot recently . But also because of who we have on the show today with us . So we have joining us Chase Clemons from 37s ignals . Today he is the head of the customer support team over there at 37s ignals and they develop online software , including Basecamp , which is a tool that we use at Buzzsprout every day . I'm in Basecamp all day , every day . So we are big fans of Basecamp , of 37signals and really just the way that they approach one customer support , but , just like leadership and their values as a whole , we are just big fans of them , and so I'm really excited . I feel like I have a celebrity on the podcast today , with Chase being here .
PriscillaChase has over 15 years of experience in customer support everything from front of line like queue emails directly with customers , but also leading a support team .
PriscillaI first heard of Chase but she doesn't know this back in 2020 when 37signals did a Q&A it was pandemic times and they did a Q&A . It was pandemic times and they did a Q&A with their support team and I heard about it . I think my boss said oh , they're going to do this , you should watch it , and I watched it . It was a couple of people from the support team talking about how they do support at 37 Signals . It was such a cool thing to watch because up until then , I felt very much like siloed in the work I was doing , and so it was very cool to see one some like reinforcements of things I was already doing from them , but also it gave me a ton of inspiration for implementing changes that are still things we do today in Buzzsprout support , and so that was the first I had ever heard of Chase , and then , a couple weeks ago , I reached out to have him on the podcast and he's here today , so thanks for being here , chase .
ChaseThanks , it's my pleasure . Hopefully I can live up to all of that .
PriscillaYeah , I mean , it's just so funny to think like it was early 2020 . So we're all you know , we've all gone home full time and feeling very isolated . And I watched it and I was like , oh my gosh , I want to watch that again and like , take better notes . I felt like there was so much good knowledge in that Q&A that you did , and so I'm like , oh , I just hope that our listeners can get some of that same kind of knowledge , because it really was so helpful to me , as I don't even think I was leading the team at that point . It was just a team of three of us trying to figure our way through support , and it was just so helpful for me as I started to kind of build processes for our team .
ChaseSo , that's what we were hoping for . You know , the pandemic hits . We've been doing remote work for two decades at that point . So everybody starts turning to us and going all right , I need Basecamp , but I need to learn how to work from home . Like we're scattered out all across the place now . Yeah . So we just jumped right in and said like , let's , it's very Kathy Sierra ish . Right , Like it's , I'll teach the competition essentially . Yeah so .
ChaseI like to tell folks like when you , you know , when you buy Basecamp , you get us too . It's not just the product , you get all of the you know two decades of experience that we have to guide and suggest , to make recommendations and all that .
PriscillaSo one of the things we do with this podcast , I always like to kick it off by asking people who made your day recently . So we do this because , in support , we have this ability to make or break people's day with how we work with them , and so I just like the idea of shouting out someone who really made your day recently .
ChaseYeah , so this is one of the most unexpected places that I could possibly fathom Right , so I went in to get my tags renewed a couple of weeks ago and any trip to the . Dmv is always a nightmare , right , because it's like do I have the right paperwork ? Am I in the right spot when you get in the building ? Are you in the right line , even because there's so many different lines and all ?
Priscillathat and then , 20 minutes later , you realize you're not in the right line .
ChaseRight , you get up to the counter and they're like , oh , you forgot that anyway . Yeah .
ChaseSo there was a wonderful gentleman , kevin , who was at the door when you first walk into the DMV and he was like hey , what are you here for ? I said tag renewal . And he goes all right , have you got this ? I went yep , I've got that . And he goes all right , line number two right over there , they'll help you out . Just that simple act of got the right stuff and B you know where you're going . Yeah , of course it makes the whole back end process easier . Right , like all the clerks working up there can go faster , since everything's right . Yeah .
ChaseBut for the person like you walk into the DMV kind of dreading it and then all of a sudden it turns into this like oh , that was actually pleasant , I guess .
PriscillaYeah it . It's like that gives you the confidence to like no , you're not wasting your time now .
ChaseYeah , exactly .
PriscillaAnd it's funny because that kind of role is not necessarily a role that has to happen , but it's something that will make everything run so much smoother . It'll make people stop dreading going to the DMV if they know they walk in and they get put in the right spot with someone who is confident that they know where you should be . That's so great .
ChaseOtherwise it's like signs at the front door right , like it'll be a big sign that says you got to have A , b and C and if you have that , go to this line . So you got people at the door reading the sign , looking at their stuff trying to figure out can you trust the sign ? Like , am I reading the sign right ?
PriscillaThey don't push it the wrong way .
ChaseSo now the arrow's turning that way no-transcript studies and political science and that kind of fun stuff . So I happened to graduate right about the time of the recession , so like there wasn't a lot of jobs out there at the time . So I fell into the restaurant world . I had done that in high school . My parents had owned restaurants , so I was like I know this world , Like let me just jump back into there essentially . So I worked for a couple of different places and got married and was like I need health insurance . So moved over to a chain , a franchise , called Jason's Deli .
PriscillaI'm familiar .
ChaseGreat restaurant , loved it , loved the owner , loved the team that I worked with . After doing it for about a year and a half , though , it's like these 50 hour weeks are killing me , like plus the one hour commute each way , it was like OK , so , funny enough , the managers were always given a book every couple of months of like , hey , this is something we want you to read to grow as a leader , grow as a manager . And they'd given us the book Rework from Jason and David .
PriscillaOh , wow .
ChaseAnd blitzed through it , loved it . Got to the back and they were like , hey , here's our website , here's our jobs board , here's our email , if you want to talk to us and I was like on a fluke , let me just go look and see what they might have . Right , like the world of tech support had never entered into my framework until then . Yeah , so I go to the website . There's an opening for customer support and again I'm like like what's the odds ?
Chaseright , I know how a computer works , I know how online stuff works , right , yeah , but I've never done like customer support , essentially . But I put my cover letter in , send him my resume and a couple days later I'm talking to Jason and he's like I think you're going to be a great fit here . Like please join us . Wow . I was like , yes , absolutely , and that was 2011 . So fly up there , start with a team , super small team there . In the beginning I think I was higher number four or five . On the support team itself yeah , higher number like mid 15 , 16 range for the company . So still really small essentially , and fell in love with it . Yeah .
ChaseNot only do you get to help people , which I've always loved like I've loved that all the way back to college , thinking that's why I want to be a teacher , right , but you get to help people building their businesses . That's the cool thing with Basecamp it's made for small businesses . People that made their second hire , made their third hire and just like the business is growing and they need some help . Like that is really fun people to work with , really interesting problems to work with , and that's why I've been there now for 13 , 14 years .
PriscillaYeah , can you talk a little about the different products that you support , because it's not just Basecamp . What else do you work with directly ?
ChaseOh man , we , we like building things . Yeah , absolutely so . Basecamp is the flagship . That one was launched back in 2004 . We've we're all the way up to Basecamp version four .
ChaseNow we have some what we call legacy products that we we launched and , for whatever reason you know , decided to not offer it for new signups . Like , if you use the product you can still use it . So high rise is a CRM like that , an old campfire chat , an old backpack app , the big ones , basecamp , hey , is our email service , email and calendar service . So if you're looking for an email service that isn't going to sell your data , like Gmail and the others do , then definitely give Heycom a look . We also do what we call our once products and once apps are . Buy it once and you're good . So if you're looking to get off , like Slack , for instance , because the price is enormous , then you can buy Campfire . It's $2.99 one time you hosted on your own server and you're good to go . You know , going back to kind of the 2000 vibes where it's like I buy a piece of software and own it you know which is really , really cool .
ChaseAnd then we got two brand new products coming out later this fall which I can't talk about yet . But yeah , that's a full line of products .
PriscillaYeah , that's awesome . So you run the team that works on all across , all of those products .
ChaseYeah , that's one of the big things , right ? So we wanted to make sure from the very beginning , with our team , everybody can work across as many products as possible . One it makes scheduling easier , right . You don't have to like figure out who can do what and cover when . Two it just makes for a better support experience because we have customers that use multiple products and so you don't have to bounce from one team to the next team to the next team just because you had a question about a different product .
PriscillaYeah , that's great .
37signals' Philosophy on Customer Feedback
PriscillaWell , now that people know kind of where you're coming from and what brought you to customer support , I want to kind of jump into customer feedback . I've been leading the Buzzsprout support team for like eight years and I still feel like customer feedback and customer feature requests is something that I just don't feel like I've cracked the code on . There is a very tricky balance to find there and I know that 37signals has a lot of really I don't want to say strong opinions , but they're probably pretty strong opinions but interesting views on customer feedback . So can you share a little bit of just your opinions on customer feedback and how they inform the way your team handles client feedback and requests ?
ChaseSo in our industry you hear a lot of buzzwords right , are you a product driven company , are you a customer driven company ? Or you know like , where , where do you fit ? And all that and that kind of a setup right . The thing I always keep coming back to is that old quote whatever you want to call it attributed to Henry Ford . Right .
ChaseIf you ask customers what they want , then they're going to say they want faster horses when in reality they want a car . And that's the same thing in our world . It's you get feature request after feature request after feature request and a lot of times what teams will do is they'll catalog everything . Right , it goes into some Trello board or Kanban board or Jira thing or whatever . Right , it goes into what ends up becoming a junk drawer . Essentially , you try to keep track of stuff with , like , upvotes or links or labels or whatever . And then you're looking at this whole thing and you've got the customer's perspective in all of this . Right , the customer's telling you what they're experiencing , but that's it . Like you don't have a full picture at that point . So you're looking at this junk drawer , trying to make sense of all of it and trying to figure out where to go , and eventually you just kind of throw your hands up and go well , like , we know that X amount of customers want Y feature , so let's build that . Maybe that's what they're looking for . Right , there's a better way ? Yeah , and this is one of those things that it took us a while to find that most effective spot .
ChaseSo what we do when we hear from customers about the future request . Right , there's kind of a couple of paths that that request is going to take . One , it could be that we're just not going to do it . A customer says I need a waterfall chart report or I need payroll budgeting numbers inside base camp . We're just we're not going to do that . One , we don't hear it very often and two , we have no experience with any of that as far as it being in Basecamp . In those cases you just have to be open and honest with the customer and tell them look , I'm sorry , like we don't have that , we're likely not going to do that , but here's some other alternatives . Here's some third party integrations that work with Basecamp that you can look at . We try not to leave them with like no path forward , but we are very clear like it's not something we're gonna do and we don't want to give you false hope that we might do that . Yeah .
ChaseSo if we know we're not just tell the customer right If we think we might , or even if we know we're going to right .
ChaseSo like sometimes I know what the product team is thinking about , what . So , like sometimes I know what the product team is thinking about , what they're looking for more information on , Right . So those two second buckets , if we might , or we know we're going to at some point . Customer writes in about that and we treat those differently . We say , hey , like that is really interesting . My first email back to them at that point is can you tell me more about what just happened that led to you emailing us ? Yeah .
ChaseAnd that one question gives a good filter right , because some customers are going to come back and say , oh well , like it was nothing , really Like it was . Just somebody walked by my desk and mentioned that it would be cool and it's like all right , that's cool . Like that doesn't give me any information , but thank you , I appreciate that Right . Yeah .
ChaseSome people will write back a . There's this good medium ground where somebody is like oh yeah , like I ran into this and like I've stumbled into it a couple of times and I just finally like it irked me enough where I just had to tell somebody about it . Those are the interesting ones , because there's some energy there and I want to get on a call with them . But that's the like initial stuff , right , it's the if we're not going to do it , just tell them . If we think we're going to , or we're pretty sure we're going to , then we ask that second follow-up question so we can start digging into that specific customer instance .
Effective Customer Feedback Research
PriscillaYeah , you're making these phone calls once you get to a place where you want to learn more . How often are you making those phone calls and who on your team is kind of on the lines to do that ? Is that just you , or are there people on the team that are also jumping on those phone calls ?
ChaseOriginally it was just me , which was fun . You know , when I was doing frontline support , this was my one of my side projects that I work on . It was , you know , really great time . And then , once I become the head of the team , it was , oh , I got to like train some other people because I got more stuff to do now , you know . So Jane's also helping me in this . Now she's one of our support reps over in the UK and then for other people on the team as they're leveling up in their career , this is always an option to them . If they're interested in product research , if they're interested in this , these customer interviews and this kind of jobs to be done framework that we work with , they have that option to join in at any time .
PriscillaSo it mostly stays within the support team then .
ChaseYeah .
PriscillaWho's doing that research ? To learn more about this feedback or request that you're getting ?
ChaseDefinitely , this is one of those where , like we like to think about feature requests , it's almost like you're a detective going in to figure out what the it's not necessarily a crime scene , right , but like figuring out the situation . Yeah , you've got your frontline detectives doing . It's not like the cops that are doing that . These are like one step up , right . These are detectives who that's their primary job , essentially , and then all that gets pushed up as needed to other members of the team and over into the product team . You're sleuthing out the pain points .
ChaseSleuthing it out , exactly .
PriscillaExactly With all of your knowledge and experience from the support team , you can . You know the questions to ask . What kind of boundaries do you put in place for people who are making those calls so that you don't spend all of your days on those phone calls ? Because I can imagine I mean as someone who's done some phone support there are some calls that can take a long time and you go .
PriscillaI got to get off this call . I can't spend an hour on this call . So how do you , what boundaries do you guys put in place to make sure those are not taking so long to get accomplished ?
ChaseYeah , there's a couple of little tricks . So first , when we reach out to the customer , say , hey , would you jump on a call with us ? We use a Calendly link . That way they can pick their time and everything from there . That Calendly link sets it at 20 minutes automatically . So they know , going into it like , hey , this is about a 20 minute block .
ChaseNow sometimes you get into a conversation you're like , oh , there's so much good stuff and like , yeah , you can even tell the customer at that point like , look , I know , we said 20 minutes , can I have like another 10 of your time ? Then they're more than grateful to do that Right ? So that's the first . You set that expectation that way . The second trick that we found to be really effective is when you first get on the phone call customers are really excited to talk about because they're like , oh my God , somebody's listening to me . So the first thing that we do is we ask a question and then we just kind of sit back for a second and let them brain dump everything out and then , once that is out of the way , then you can move into the other questions that you have and really get to the meat and bones of what's going on there , but they have to get that first like little thing in their head out essentially , otherwise , yeah , that call is going to stretch out , because that's , they just have to get it out , you just have to .
PriscillaYeah , yeah , yeah , that's one of the things as we've been navigating , you know , recording and tracking customer feedback , one of the things I keep finding myself running up against this danger of creating busy work for my team . And you know there's this line with customer feedback , like you were saying about the faster horse , like you want to see it and accept it and know it , but there is a line of how far you take it and what kind of takes your time and what doesn't , and so one I don't want to put processes in place that are just busy work , that aren't going to be bettering the product or the team , and so how do you structure the process to avoid that pitfall of the busy work , but instead structuring these in a way that you're getting value out of them and it's not just another phone call to check a box and move on ?
ChaseSo the first trick with this is so our frontline folks , when they see a feature request we've trained them to know like , oh yeah , this is a good one , that we need to bump up to somebody to make a call , essentially to bump up to Jane or myself . So what they do is they basically take that email , get some information for us and then pop it into a Basecamp project . About once a week or so , jane and I go through and look at the things that have come in and go , oh yeah , like this is interesting , this not so much . This is one I want to know more about , this one Not so much . So we start looking through and making a list of , like these are the ones that we want to talk to from there , right .
ChaseAnd then Jane goes out and has conversations with as many of those folks as she can . So by separating it out and saying on the front line we just want you to real quick , pop this over into the Basecamp project for us . There's not really any busy work there because it's a post-it . Forget it . The front line folks move on at that point , yeah , and then Jane and I are really good about all right , this is work , this is research , but this is useful work that , even if we don't end up doing that feature , or if we do five calls and they end up being bust , that's just part of it , that's just the accepted whatever of it .
ChaseSo by doing those things , you take out the busy work . Busy work for me is like doing all the stuff that has no value at all . Right , so it's the labeling things . Yep , I'm sorry . If you've got one or two people spending enough time looking through the requests that are coming in , they don't need the labels and all . They'll know the patterns just off the top of their head . They'll see it . Essentially it's not quite like Neo and the Matrix , but kind of you know . So when you've got a bunch of people looking at the data , you need those shortcuts of the labels . Right , you need the shortcuts of , like , the groupings and all the rest of it . When it's only a couple of you doing this , then it's going to be easier to spot the patterns and you're going to have that running thing in your head .
ChaseYou're going to know it when you see it . Essentially and it takes a little while Like I'm not going to put somebody that's only been on the team for six months into a role like Jane's Jane's been with us for six , eight years , something like that . Yeah , so she knows what to look for .
PriscillaYeah , when people come to you and say , hey , I want to level up , I want to be part of this team that calls and learns more about this , do they go through a training before they get put on those phone calls ?
ChaseYeah . So it's a little bit of a training , but it's also a little bit of like you're jumping in the pool here , right ? So , with 37 Signals , we have this idea of being a manager of one .
PriscillaSo do we ? We follow that same theology .
ChaseYeah , you want people who are eager and run toward the problem , run toward the fire , run toward the open space , Right ? Not people that you're going to have to like . All right , you've got to do like these five things and that's going to be your training essentially , yeah . So when somebody says , hey , you know , Chase , I want to do this . There's a couple of books , I sit down . It's like these are going to be really helpful , Like you don't have to read the full thing , but like skim through it , essentially because we're teaching them a basic jobs to be done framework . Essentially I've said that term a couple of times . Let me explain that so for folks that haven't seen this .
ChaseSo a jobs to be done framework is the idea that every product out there whether it's , you know , an actual product or a feature in a product or a thing you buy , right has a specific job to be done . So when people come to Basecamp , typically speaking , Basecamp is one of those things where it doesn't matter what industry you're in . You're either a small business owner who is trying to grow the business and you need that level up , right . You need the Mario fire flower to level up to the next part , right . Or you're like a new manager or a team leader or something , and your team just missed something and you've got to make sure that that doesn't happen again .
ChaseThose are the big two jobs that Basecamp solves . So everything out there pretty much has a job to be done and that's what you look for . You look for the job . Buying a Snickers has a different job than buying a Milky Way , essentially . So we've got to give new folks kind of a crash course into that , Like you don't have to know everything but you need to know some basics in here .
ChaseSo we give them , you know , just a couple of quick books and short little things to read through , skim through . Bob Motessa did a really great thing . It was like Unboss conference or something like that video about the whole thing . That's one of the it's like an hour long thing . We give them that video to watch so they can kind of see it in action , essentially .
ChaseAnd then after that we say , hey , look , we are going to stick you in a couple of calls as a what we call second chair . So , like , typically , when we're doing the interviews , you've got a first chair , who's the primary person , and then on future requests it's usually one person . But if we're doing like full interviews , you'll have two people you have , and like full interviews , you'll have two people . You have a first chair and a second chair . So we're just going to stick them with Jane , stick them with myself , and have them listen to an interview and see how we go about sleuthing it out . And that's the big thing that we found with these the more interviews that you do it's like working out the more reps that you get in , the better you're going to be at it essentially . So yeah , we have a little bit of a training , but it's also a little bit of like all right , you're in the customer support pool . We're just going into the deep end now .
PriscillaYeah , and they're probably already pretty comfortable with that customer interaction because they're on the support team and they're eager to level up . So I'm sure there's that eagerness there too . Yeah , it's so fun With the sink or swim training method . We use swim training method . We use that a lot too . Is you know , we want to give you enough information that you're confident , but at the same time , you're going to learn the best when you're in there and you're doing it , and so I love that . I love that strategy .
ChaseNow we tell new hires that you're going to be in the pool on day one . You're going to be working with customers on day one . You're going to have floaties and there's going to be people around you , but you're still going to be in the pool but you're going to be in the pool , you're going to be swimming .
PriscillaYeah , I love that . One of the things I keep coming back to is the idea that what you're trying to get to the bottom of is the need , not so much the feature request , but what they're trying to do . So what questions do you guys ask to kind of suss out that ?
ChaseYeah , so three big ones . The first one is always why now ? So the fact that somebody sent you an email or a chat or whatever today at that time is important because , especially if they're an older customer , like have been with you for a while , what was the tipping point for that specific time that they were like ? You know what I'm actually going to tell the company about this . Yeah .
ChaseRight , they weren't going to like just mumble and grumble and move on Like something was different . Enough that they were like hey , like hey , we need to . We need to get in touch with them . Second , what's the workaround ? Yeah , it's like . What have you been doing up until this point ?
Priscillayeah , right to make this workable for you .
ChaseRight to make this whole thing , do the thing right yeah so , like one of the good ones .
ChaseThe examples I use with base camp is uh , to do so with . To do's you some to do apps out there have , like you can set the priority of a specific thing . In Basecamp we don't really have priorities or anything like that on a to do , but we tell folks look , you can put an emoji at the beginning of the to do name to give that visual pop . Put a red circle or a green circle or whatever for that , just pop at the front . So I was working with a customer one day and they were like , yeah , that's the workaround I'm doing , like I did the little circle thing and whatnot , all the rest of it . And we're like , oh cool , like why is that not working anymore ? And they go oh well , we hired somebody who's blind and that visual cue is gone now and the screen reader kind of picks it up right . It like tells what the emoji like as a name is essentially . Yeah .
ChaseBut that whole visual indication is lost at that point . Oh , okay , that makes sense . That's why was it not working ? It's because they made a new hire . What was the work around ? Well , that was the work around , but that doesn't work in this situation anymore .
PriscillaYeah Right . That's such a good example of why being like curious and wanting to learn more about the request or the feedback is so important . Because you can easily have an email conversation with a customer who's asking for a very specific feature and totally miss that piece of information that , as the support person working with them , you have to know that in order to fully understand why they're asking for a priority to be there , you're like , why not use this workaround ? This is great , but then getting on the phone and giving them the ability to share that with you can really open up your eyes to what they're actually running into . I love that example so much . That's such a good example .
ChaseAnd that's the thing I tell all the folks I'm working with right , just be curious , right , yeah . So one of the values we have on our team is be curious , not judgmental .
PriscillaOh , I love that . That's so good .
ChaseDoesn't matter if , like , a customer is using Basecamp in the weirdest way that you've possibly heard of , right , figure out why they're doing it that way , yeah , essentially . So yeah , be curious , not judgmental . I think I stole that from a Ted Lasso episode at some point .
PriscillaProbably that sounds like Ted . Yeah , it's an old Walt Whitmore quote , I think it .
ChaseIt's an old Walt Whitmore quote , I think .
PriscillaIt's so good though .
ChaseIt is . It is . I mean , that's a big thing , like we actually build it into , like our leveling , so like one of the things we want you to get better at as you grow in your career is being curious , like asking better questions essentially . So , yeah , it's the why . Now right , like why is it not working at this moment ? What's the workaround ? And then , if you keep doing it that way , what's going to go wrong ?
PriscillaThat's a good one too .
ChaseRight , because there are some things where it's an inconvenience . Yeah . Like , yeah , we can keep doing this , nothing is really going to go wrong . Like they're not going to drop Basecamp or the product and move on or anything . This gives you a sense of the energy and the urgency of it . Yeah , right , so like if somebody says , oh yeah , like if we can't figure this out , then we're going to keep missing things , and like Basecamp , the whole point is not to miss anything . Essentially , Yep .
ChaseSo that you know , if you keep doing it the current way , what's going to go wrong . That'll tell you the energy , it'll tell you the urgency of it and it will also let you into their thinking a little bit . Let you into their thinking a little bit . So , like 50-50 , right . Sometimes they will have thought that thing through and they're like , oh yeah , like this will go wrong and like I've already thought about that Right . Half the other time they're like you can see it on the zoom , you can see them go . Oh well , like I guess , like nothing really bad would happen , and then all of a sudden that just like goes away .
PriscillaEssentially , yeah , it's like they convince themselves out of it . Yeah , exactly . Yeah , I've been in situations where I'm talking to like our developers and I'm like you know , I really think we should have this and they'll be like , but why ? Why do we want that ? And then I'm like you know , the more I talk about this with you , the more I think maybe we don't actually need that , maybe the solution is something different , or the solution is an education for how the tool works and not changing the tool to fit . The
Communication and Understanding Feature Requests
PriscillaOne of the things you talked about earlier was some feedback comes in , there's the yes , no , and you know in the future , maybe . So how do you communicate with your team , what feature requests are possible and then how to navigate , figuring that answer out before it gets to you ?
ChaseYeah . So there are a couple of things that we know we're just not going to do and we tell them as we're training on a feature request because , again , like , we do feature requests differently so we spend a morning during a new hire's training going this is the way we want you to handle it . We want you to be open and honest and we want you to tell them no if it's a no and if it's a maybe , then here's the question we want you to ask . So we spend a morning covering this and in that we tell them here's a couple of things that we know we're just not ever going to do Like G , never going to be in Basecamp . We don't think they're fundamentally effective .
ChaseAt the end of the day , basecamp is about the communication and the collaboration , the working on the project . It's not about the look at this fancy reporting chart that I can pull , so Gantt charts . We're just not going to do . So there are a couple of things that we tell them like these are ones that we 99% sure we're just not going to do for whatever reason . Another good example was custom languages , right ? So , like Basecamp's interface is in English , the UI is in English , you can type whatever language you want , and you can rename some tools that you want , but for the most part it's in English . Yeah .
ChaseWe're probably not going to do translations because it's a very complicated undertaking . Yeah . Yeah , so we tell them that and then we tell them for everything else , just ask like we have a campfire chat up that the entire support team is paying attention in the day we're dropping questions back and forth yeah , so for new hires . You're like , hey , is this something that we're interested in ? You can ask somebody and we'll say , yeah , maybe like go ahead or no , we're just not , and then we'll give them a reason why .
ChaseAnd it's that like learning by experience thing like I can't give you every answer You're going to have to be curious enough to ask .
PriscillaYeah , so take the language as one . For example , if someone requests that and you say , no , that's not something we're going to be working on , and you give them an honest , transparent answer that that's not where we're going to go , and then they push back and they get frustrated that you've dismissed them and you're you know , and your goal for being transparent and treating them like a human and telling them the truth is translated as oh , you're brushing me off and you're not gonna accept this as a real valid thing . How do you train your team to take that and continue with that empathy and understanding without saying , okay , fine , I'll pass it along to the team ?
ChaseYeah , so that question comes up like 95% in the trial customers that we have . Yeah .
ChaseYou're looking for the new thing . Folks have boxes to check , so it's not somebody that's like sold on us and has been with us for a while for the most part . So when we first sound like , hey , look , that's not something we're likely to do , but we want to give some option , right , so we continue that thought with . But you know anywhere that you can enter text in Basecamp , you can use any language that you want , right , as long as you don't mind the labels being in English at that point . And that gets folks 80% of the way there . Essentially , if they do say like , hey , look , this is a must have requirement for the app that I choose , okay , great , sorry , basecamp's not the right fit for this one . Here's a couple of other options that do have that . Check into them .
PriscillaIt's kind of . I don't know if you're familiar with improv and the rule of yes and yes and yep .
PriscillaIt's kind of like the opposite , no , but you know it's like no , we're not going to do this , but here's some other ways you can get that done .
PriscillaCustomers to that you care about them more than you care about them using your product , because sometimes you're right , it's not going to be that your product is the right fit and sometimes your product is the right fit , but there's this third party that's going to help them do a workaround to achieve what they want to achieve .
PriscillaI think it can be hard as especially someone new in the customer support world to be told hey , you're actually going to say no , and you go oh gosh , I'm going to tell them no , and so , like you know no , but is great , like no , we're not going to be able to do this , but here's other ways . Or , but if this is something that's a deal breaker for you , I'd be happy to help you find another tool that's going to solve that problem for you , knowing that . I mean , this is how Buzzsprout is built as well . We are built for very specific types of what people are looking for and we're not trying to be everything for everyone , and so sometimes you're going to have people who aren't going to stay , and that's because they're looking for something that we're not offering , and I think that that's totally valid and can be freeing , even though it can also feel pretty scary to say no to a customer .
ChaseYeah , and that's one of those things a lot of companies out there will tell them like , oh , yeah , like I'll pass it on to the team , and then that customer is left hanging essentially yeah , exactly , and so they might be in your products , but they're not happy about being there , and that distrust just will build from there . You know , that's why we try to be as upfront as possible , and for anybody that does push back , it's still a phrase from my grandmother like kill them with kindness . Yeah , just be empathetic , just be nice , just be the helpful neighbor that you know wants to give some advice . Nobody's going to be mad if you do that .
PriscillaYeah , and if they are . Sometimes we had an episode a while back about angry customers and sometimes people are . They just want to be angry and sometimes people just want to be frustrated and you're not going to flip that with as many options as you give them . They want you to do it the way they want you to do it and if you don't , that's just it's not going to work for them and so sometimes you just have to be okay with the resolution not being perfect there . So on the flip side of that , when someone writes in and they ask you a question or ask for a feature that you are working on , and you're like , oh yeah , this is in development . What do you guys do you like ? How much do you share about things that are in development ?
ChaseNot a word .
PriscillaYeah , not a word Not a word . So Not even like a wink .
ChaseNot even a wink wink , nudge , nudge . Nothing , right , nothing Cause I've been burned before . Yeah , so we work in six week cycles . I have seen features . We're good to the end of the six weeks . It's in Q&A , it looks good , we think we're going to ship this thing and at the very day or two before we go live end of the cycle we can pull that circuit breaker and say , look , this does not meet the quality that we want to put out there . Right , because there's nothing worse than putting a feature out there and being like , oh no , never mind , jk , we have to take it back .
ChaseYeah , Essentially there have been times where like four or five since I've been here but there are times where you get to the end and everything looked good , and if I had promised the customer that something was in the works , and all of a sudden it gets called off and that trust is broken at that point , yep . So yeah , we don't . Not a word , not a mention . Now , after it ships , we make sure to go back through and to talk with all the customers that we heard that idea from . It's like hey , look , here's this new thing . Like glad we can make this happen . And customers are thrilled that we like close the loop .
PriscillaAt that point , yeah , that's the most fun that follow up with the customer once it is launched , especially when it like the timing works out where they , you know , email on a Friday and you launch it on a Monday and then Tuesday you could reach out and say , hey , remember me from Friday . I have a really exciting thing to tell you . Those are like the most fun email to follow up on because you're like you know , I couldn't tell you this on Friday , but now you can jump in and you can use it . One of our podcasters was requesting a feature that we ended up implementing and when it was out we got to call her and tell her and she was just so excited and that's just such a fun , rewarding thing to be able to do , to kind of , you know , step in for your customers in that way .
PriscillaIt's great to do to kind of you know
Customer Feedback Implementation Strategies
Priscillastep in for your customers in that way , it's great . So all of this so far we've really been talking about is like communicating these customer needs and these requests and getting information within the support team . But the other side of that is communicating outside of the support team to your product team development team , the things you're learning in support , because you know in support we're the front lines , we're working with customers , we're hearing all the stuff . We're learning this , we know our customers and then we turn and how do you then communicate it out to the team as a whole ? So can you give us a little insight into what that looks like ?
ChaseYeah , so after we've talked to a couple of customers , we usually have a really good idea of what the problem is . Right , they might have used different words to describe everything and they probably all had different ideas about how to solve the problem . But , like , we've looked at the crime scene , we've put the evidence together and we can now see like this is the smoking gun , this is the problem .
ChaseSo we'll write up basically it's I mean , I guess you could call it a brief For us . It's like here's a summary , essentially , of what we've learned . We'll go in . It's just a tech stock in Basecamp , it's literally just like a note , and in that we'll list out like here's the problem , here's the different customers that we've talked to . Here's what those customers said in their words . So we'll , like , we'll pull out their words from the transcript and put it in there . We'll also , since all of these calls are recorded , we'll put the MP3 audio file right in there , because it helps to hear from the customer . You can hear the energy in some of their questions .
ChaseSo we lay out the case as best as we can with all of that , and then we say , look , we don't know the solution at this moment . Right , but this is enough to start working on a pitch , essentially . So we'll write all that up , we store it in a Basecamp project and then , when the product team is looking for what is going to happen in the next cycle , sometimes they have their own ideas , sometimes they have things that they want to build , and then sometimes it's well , what are the customer things that we're hearing , and you can go to this library essentially of these are the patterns that we've seen . These are the problems that we are reasonably confident that we need to tackle , and they'll have that whole backstory there with all the research done , all the interviews done , ready to go , and they can pick it up and go all right .
ChaseWell , that's the problem . I can start figuring out a couple of like answers for that , and so that flows into what we call a pitch . Now , the pitch is basically the problem the solutions that we think could work , and the product team works on that . They'll come up with a couple of like this is how we think we're going to tackle it , and then that's turned over to a designer and a programmer to go and implement . Now they might change some stuff in there , they might get into the actually building out the feature and go , yeah , like that's not going to work exactly in the best way , so we're going to tweak it and do this .
PriscillaWe're going to make a car instead of a faster horse , right .
ChaseYeah , but everything's going to come back to that original Like . This is the problem that we're tackling .
PriscillaYeah , that's very cool . So sometimes what we will see on our team is , you know , we identify something that we want to pitch , or we want to communicate and we communicate it out and it doesn't get picked up as a project , right , or we pitch it and it doesn't get picked up as a project , right , or we pitch it and it doesn't come back and development doesn't work , move forward with it .
PriscillaSometimes it's hard to do that and have it not accepted and then to feel like , oh gosh , I just spent all this time advocating for this need that I feel strongly about , because I wrote a pitch for it and it didn't get picked up . It can be hard to then go and pitch again in the future or to pitch it again or something .
PriscillaHow do you , as a leader on your team , kind of encourage people on your team to continue advocating for things after getting kind of like the no , we're not going to move forward with this right now ?
ChaseYeah , so the first thing is just set the expectation . I tell everyone this is like playing a game of darts in a bar . If you had like two oscillating fans in front of you blowing different directions , right , the chances of you taking that dart and hitting the board even is . It's just hard . Right , because you've got so many ideas that are coming through , but you've only got six weeks to work with and you've got this set like these teams of designers and programmers are going to work on this , keeping in mind we also have one , two , three , we got four products in active development right now , so there's a lot of competing interest . Yeah .
ChaseSo , as part of the shape up method , what happens is our CEO , our CTO , our product strategy , and then usually one of our programming heads will come together and look at a bunch of different pitches and say , all right , these are the four that we're going to do out of like 50 , right , these are the four , these are the six or however many , these are the people we have , this is the group right , and the rest of them go back into the pile .
ChaseNow they can come back down the road and we , you know , I tell the folks that do this with me , like , look , just because it doesn't get picked up on the first time doesn't mean it's not going to down the road . Sometimes we put it in the pile again , sometimes we make a push for it again and it gets picked up on the second , third , fourth time . My deputy head of support she had one that she pushed for for like six months , eight months , and we all thought it was done , and she was like just one more , like just one more push for it and it got picked up . You know , yeah , so it literally is like playing a game of darts with fans in your way , like sometimes the stars have to align for you to get one through and you have to be okay with that .
PriscillaYeah , setting those expectations ahead of time so people know what to expect , because it can be . I remember pitching some things early on at Buzzsprout and then not getting picked up and feeling like , oh my gosh , I'm never going to pitch anything again . Oh gosh .
PriscillaYes , this is so embarrassing and it's so helpful to think about it . Like the game of darts , like you're saying that you're throwing it out there , it might not land . This time you might need to go and add some more information to it to help you know further it along . Maybe it's not exactly the issue you originally started with and maybe it changes as you learn more information over six months while it's out there . So I think that's so good to just keep that in mind that it's not a failure if it doesn't get picked up the first time that you pitch it . Yeah , just before we wrap up , do you have any advice for smaller support teams that are looking to put these kind of processes in place so that they can start on a strong foot as a smaller team ?
ChaseYeah , biggest piece of advice here is just the more interviews you do , the better you're going to get . Yeah . In the beginning , when I was doing these , like I thought I knew the right questions to ask , and learn that those weren't the right questions , right . Yeah .
ChaseLike it's one of those . Like you've got to get your reps in , you've got to figure out what works , what doesn't work , and the only way that you're going to do that is actually doing the calls , actually doing the interviews . Like you can sit here and look at data all day long , you can tag every case with whatever and go well , we saw a 20% jump in this feature request . Doesn't matter , right ? What you need is people that are actually sticking with the crime scene metaphor , actually got the scene right , that have seen this thing , and you need to talk to them and see what's going on . Those firsthand accounts is the only way that you're going to start putting together the pattern in your head . I've tried it . You're not going to get that via email . Like I've tried to have conversations like this across just pure text via email , and it just doesn't work out .
ChaseLike you need to be able to see them and hear their inflections , hear their energy to figure out where the next question is , like where you need to go , and that only comes with the more reps that you do . So you're going to kind of like with podcasting . You're not going to be great on those first couple episodes but you got to keep with it and continue with it and like your skills are going to grow the more that you do it .
ChaseSo if it doesn't work the first time or the second time or the 10th time , don't give up . The first time or the second time or the 10th time , don't give up , like this is a thing that is , you just got to have some perseverance and keep going .
PriscillaThat's such good advice . Well , thank you for sharing this with us , chase . It's really helpful one for me , but I'm sure , for our listeners to learn how you find that balance between knowing the customer's needs and holding on to kind of your expert knowledge and using that as the funnel that it's going through to get to the team as a whole . So I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge with us . My pleasure .
The Art of Customer Refunds
PriscillaSo Chase is going to stick around for our support in real life segment , where we discuss real life support experiences and questions from our listeners . So , jordan , what do you have for us today ? All ? Right , so this is a question from support during Slack .
ChaseLove them . They're great .
JordanThey are great , it says . How do you typically handle situations where customers request refunds for subscriptions that were not canceled in time ? What guiding principles or strategies do you follow to resolve these issues ?
Priscillaeffectively . This is such a good question . I think it's good for Chase and I too , because we both work in subscription based products to an extent , and so I'm sure we both deal with refund requests in this specific situation with , you know , canceled accounts pretty frequently .
ChaseYeah , we want a happy goodbye on this one , right ? This is one of those where , like , when you email us and you're like hey , like forgot to cancel , want a refund done , like don't need to know why , don't need a reason , and we'll ask them like hey , just out of curiosity , like you know , why are you leaving us as like ?
Chasean afterthought , but that question is at the bottom of the email . It's the . We've refunded . You're good to go . Just kind of curious why you're leaving . But there's no gatekeeping , there's no know like . Well , you're locked into a contract . It's happy , goodbye . Here's your money . If you need us down the road , we're here . Yeah , yeah .
ChasePlease come back if you ever want to . Essentially , if you don't , two things happen . One , they're going to hate your company . Yep Right , this is going to be like . Comcast DirecTV . Well , you're locked in for two years , right , sorry , so they're going to hate you for that .
PriscillaAnd then two they're going to do a chargeback on you anyways . Yes , they're probably going to dispute the charge .
ChaseThey're going to dispute the charge , you're going to get hit with a chargeback fee and they're going to get their money back anyways . And now they're like mad at your company and not they're going to bad mouth you to . You know whoever , whenever you come up . So yeah , firm believer in the happy goodbye , Got it . Don't worry about the technicalities like have your money back , come back if you need us .
PriscillaThe happy goodbye . I've never heard it said like that , but that's so good . We are very similar in the same boat . You know we want to be as generous as possible , and if you accidentally canceled your account two days later than you should have , yeah , we're definitely refunding that , there's no question . And you know , we want to make sure that you're happy as you go , because you don't know , you might need to come back in the future , and so we want you to have a good relationship with us . And again it comes back to caring about you more as a person than as a customer , and it doesn't make sense for you to pay for another month when you've canceled it so what makes the most sense .
PriscillaYeah , let's give you that refund . I remember one time I think I was already working with customer support and I had , you know , a new year's resolution to learn how to speak Spanish , and so I downloaded and paid for a year of Babbel and it lasted about two months and then I stopped and I was like well , I already paid for the year , so I know I signed up for that . There's no going back on that .
PriscillaWhat I forgot to do was cancel it before the next year , and so I paid for the second year and I was so frustrated with myself because I haven't taken one of these classes in like eight months , you know . So I emailed their support team and I was like , Listen , I'm sorry , I should have canceled this . I did it . It was a big charge . Is there any way that I can get a discount or a partial refund or anything ? And they gave me a full refund without any questions and it was a big refund . I mean that and they easily could have said sorry , that's your job to cancel it . And you didn't cancel it . Yeah , you agreed to our terms , Yep , but the fact that they did it so quickly , with no questions asked , makes me feel like , if I get that hankering to learn a new language again which really I would love to learn how to speak Spanish I would go back to Babbel because I know that they treated me well in that moment , and so I think that's part of why we want to make sure that we're generous to people , especially as they're leaving , is because you never know what people are going to do in the future and you want them to have a good relationship with your product and with you as a person , as a support team , and word of mouth is so strong . So even if they're like for us , even if they're not starting another podcast , but maybe they have a friend who wants to start a podcast , you want them to speak well of you when they're talking to their friends .
PriscillaI think another important thing just you know to tack on the end is I really like empowering everyone on our team to make those calls and not feeling like I have to go get a refund approved . Yeah , so it's not always even like canceling , but you know , for whatever reason like sometimes we'll have people write in and say I was in the hospital last month , I didn't upload any episodes , Is there any way I could get a discount because I didn't use the product for that month . I try to make sure everyone on my team knows that they have the power to be generous and make that call without feeling like they have to come back to me or one of the senior specialists and say , hey , I want to get this approved , this $12 refund . You know it's unnecessary . So I think that's another really important thing when you're talking about refunds , when you're talking about being generous to your customers , is empowering your team to make those calls so that they feel that confidence and that empowerment and can be generous to your customers . That's such a good point .
ChaseYou're looking for those like little , like moments of happiness that can happen in there right . So like with that example , right ? So what we would have done , same thing , right it's ? Anyone on our team could have done a refund like that right off the rip , have your money back and all the rest of it , and then you start going all right , well , what's that next level , right ? No-transcript . Like I'm so glad you're with us . Like , if you need anything , here's my email Send flowers .
PriscillaYou're looking for those ?
Chaselittle things , because those little things are what sets you apart from the competition , kind of like I said at the our team too , exactly , and that is a like support is a feature , it is a selling point with us . So anything you can do dropping a thank you card in the mail , you know , or get well card in the mail , like that's a one more little thing where it just it's the word of mouth , they're going to spread the news about you .
PriscillaYeah , because the way I like to think about it is you're building relationships right with your customers and if you just learn that your customer is in the hospital or just got out of the hospital because you care about them right , you've got this relationship with them and building that relationship just like you would with a friend . You know that kind of thing . How can I go a little step beyond , like I'm going to give them this refund ? Of course that's a given , but what can I do beyond that to build that relationship and set us apart ? I love it so much .
ChaseThat's a whole other show right there .
PriscillaThat's a whole other show right there , I know , really delighting your customers . I'm like , all right , we'll have you back , chase , we'll do that episode later , but thank you so much for being here . I really appreciate it . And remember that if you have a story to share or a question for us , you can email us at happytohelpatbuzzsproutcom or you can text the show using our text , the show link that's in the show notes . We in the show notes we will pick one question or story to discuss each week , so if you send something in , you may hear it on a future episode . Chase , before we go , is there anything that you want to share with our listeners about how they can find you or where they can go to learn more about who you are and what you're doing ?
ChaseYeah , so easiest way I'm not big on socials or anything like that Just drop me an email . Chase C-H-A-S-E at heycom .
PriscillaAt heycom . I love it . I love the heycom I know it's so cute I just think it's so fun yeah .
ChaseSo cute .
PriscillaH-E-Y , not H-A-Y . Yes , yes , yes . I want to thank Chase again for being here and thanks to everyone for listening . Now go and make someone's day .
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